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  • Author #5

    Member
    March 27, 2008 at 10:57 pm in reply to: Corruption of US Government

    Sonik,

    The founding fathers would be ashamed to either call what we have a government or to give it the dignity of associating it with the original American flag. I see no indignity in associating a private corporation deceptively masquerading as a government with the symbol of civil distress, which is an upside down flag. What we have is a COUNTERFEIT, not a government. It is Enron to the tenth power, to be more precise. See:

    Corporatization and Privatization of the Government, Form #05.024

    http://sedm.org/Forms/MemLaw/CorpGovt.pdf

    Vulgarity or name calling in these forums is inappropriate and violates the rules. It is un American to be so intolerant of dissent. In America, dissent is patriotic and anyone who slanders people for simply making a political statement is un American and a communist.

  • Author #5

    Member
    February 19, 2008 at 2:53 am in reply to: Wordsmithing

    Riveryway,

    It's kind of irrelevant to the average American. “The title” describes the entire body of law, but if that body of law is identified in 1 USC 204 as “prima facie” evidence, and “prima facie” is defined as a presumption, then the whole damn title is nothing but a statutory presumption. Presumptions are not evidence nor can they be used as a substitute for evidence without violating due process of law. Therefore, there is no legally admissible evidence of any obligation and the entire internal revenue code is nothing but a state sponsored religion, whereby “presumption” acts as the equivalent of religious faith. See:

    1. Presumption: Chief Weapon for Unlawfully Enlarging Federal Jurisdiction, Form #05.017

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    2. Reasonable Belief About Income Tax Liability, Form #05.007

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    3. Socialism: The New American Civil Religion, Form #05.016

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    The code is only law for those who obey it and believe it applies to them. All those who are party to the private law, special law, and franchise agreement codified in I.R.C. Subtitle A have fired God and are worshipping the government as their new benefactor and “parens patriae”. In that capacity, they become “trustees” and “public officers” of the goverment engaged in the “trade or business” franchise. This is exactly how the bible works: All those who believe in God are parties to the laws in the Holy Bible, and become fiduciaries, stewards, and trustees of God's government on earth. In that sense, the bible, like the I.R.C. Subtitle A, behavies as a trust indenture and a franchise. The benefit of participation is either a indemnification of personal responsibility and liability by a big social insurance company, in the case of the I.R.C., or a limitation of liability from the wrath of Hades, in the case of the bible. In modern 501(c )(3) churches, Jesus is just a “fire insurance salesman” who sells protection from the wrath of Hades. He is a savior, but not a Sovereign Lord. This is paganism. See:

    http://famguardian.o…ityUniverse.htm

  • Author #5

    Member
    February 13, 2008 at 6:30 pm in reply to: I just don't know

    WrknMn,

    We aren't allowed to make legal determinations about the status of anyone in this ministry or in this forum. We are not familiar with your specific circumstances and it is forbidden by our Prohibited Activites to hazard a guess (See the About Us page, Section 12).

    http://famguardian.org/aboutus.htm

    Therefore we can only speak in general terms not specific to your situation and pertinent to that of the average American.

    1. The Internal Revenue Code Subtitle A “income tax” describes an excise tax and a franchise upon “public offices” within the U.S. government and upon those receiving payments from the government. In that sense, it is a “kickback scheme” for federal entities and officers designed to “look” like a legitimate tax.

    2. The term “United States” within all IRS publications and the I.R.C. refers to the United states government, and NOT the geographical united states or the states of the Union.

    3. Within the I.R.C. Subtitle A, these “public offices” are referred to as a “trade or business”.

    4. Pursuant to 4 U.S.C. 72, all “public offices” may ONLY lawfully be exercised in the District of Columbia and not elsewhere except by specific enactment of Congress.

    5. There is no statute authorizing the “public officers” that are the subject of the tax upon “trade or business” within states of the Union. Therefore, it is impossible and illegal to be a “taxpayer” as a person domiciled in a state of the Union.

    6. It constitutes perjury under penalty of perjury for a person domiciled within a state of the Union to file an IRS form 1040:

    6.1 Everything that goes on IRS form 1040 is “trade or business” earnings associated with a public office in the U.S. government.

    6.2 The average American is not lawfully authorized to engage in a public office within a state of the Union.

    6.3 Persons domiciled in a state of the Union who file the form 1040 and indicate a nonzero income are committing perjury because they cannot lawfully engage in a “public office”.

    6.4 Persons domiciled in a state of the Union who file the form 1040 are committing perjury because the form is only for use by “individuals”. All individuals on the 1040 are aliens domiciled on federal territory and nonresident aliens married to statutory U.S. citizens domiciled on federal territory.

    7. The average american domiciled in a state of the Union is a nonresident alien, but not an alien. Therefore, they cannot be the subject of any provision within the I.R.C. That is why for these people, the real “taxpayer” is the withholding agent making federal payments to them under 26 USC 1461.

    Therefore, the average american domiicled in a state of the Union cannot lawfully file IRS form 1040, cannot be a “taxpayer”, and cannot have a legal duty to file a return. It is unconstitutional for the federal government to even offer any franchises to such a person who is protected by the constitution because his rights are “unalienable”. “Unalienable rights” are defined as rights that cannot lawfully be bargained away in relation to the government through any commercial process. Franchises such as a “trade or business”/public office in the U.S. government constitute a commercial process. Therefore, it constitutes TREASON for any official of the federal or state governments to either offer or enforce any federal franchise outside of federal territory and within the exclusive jurisdiction of a state of the Union to people whose rights are protected by the federal Constitution. It is a conflict of interest for a judge to take an oath to protect the constitution and your rights on the one hand, and on the other hand protect, administer or expand franchises which have the purpose of destroying, regulating, and taxing the exercise of protected rights. See:

    Government Instituted Slavery Using Franchises, Form #05.030

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    Every citizen is supposed to know the law. No one but you can or should make the determination that you are a “nontaxpayer”. If you don't know enough about your rights to explain and defend them in a court of law, then YOU DON'T HAVE ANY! People without rights are the main audience for IRS enforcement, because they are victims of their own appathy, ignorance, laziness, and presumption. In that sense, our government is a PREDATOR, not a PROTECTOR, of the innocent and the ignorant.

    By your comments, you aren't willing or equipped to learn or defend your rights. Your legal ignorance has ensured that you will stay in “slave mode”. Therefore, until you begin to learn and enforce the law, you are incapable of self-government. The socialist corporate government we have in this deluded day and age is designed to service people who can't govern themselves because they don't want to read, learn, or enforce the law against their errant public servants.

    Quote:
    ?One who turns his ear from hearing the law [ God's law or man's law], even his prayer is an abomination.?

    [Prov. 28:9, Bible, NKJV]

    “But this crowd that does not know [and quote and follow and use] the law is accursed.?

    [John 7:49, Bible, NKJV]

    “Salvation is far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes.”

    [Psalms 119:155, Bible, NKJV]

    “Every man is supposed to know the law. A party who makes a contract [or enters into a franchise, which is also a contract] with an officer [of the government] without having it reduced to writing is knowingly accessory to a violation of duty on his part. Such a party aids in the violation of the law.”

    [Clark v. United States, 95 U.S. 539 (1877)]

    If you want to free the shackles that bind you, you must turn off the TV and execute the basic steps indicated in Section 1 of the following:

    Federal and State Withholding Options for Private Employers

    http://famguardian.org/Publications/FedSta…teWHOptions.pdf

    No one can do this for you. You can't hire anyone who will do it for you. YOU and ONLY YOU must take responsibility for yourself and for freeing yourself. The reason government keeps getting bigger and more evil every day is because it has created a business out of exploiting peoples desire to avoid responsibility by abusing its power to pass laws to indemnify people from the consequences of their sin and evasion of responsibility for their duties under God's law. Like the early Israelites, Americans would rather live under the shadow of Pharoah making bricks and straw as economic slaves to the government than leave Egypt to pursue the land of milk and honey.

    Quote:
    ?Woe to the rebellious children,? says the Lord, ?Who take counsel, but not of Me, and who devise plans, but not of My Spirit, that they may add sin to sin; who walk to go down to Egypt, and have not asked My advice, to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharoah, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!? Therefore the strength of Pharoah shall be your shame, and trust in the shadow of Egypt shall be your humiliation?

    Now go, write it before them on a tablet, and note it on a scroll, that it may be for time to come, forever and ever: that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children who will not hear the law of the Lord; who say to the seers, ?Do not see,? and to the prophets, ?Do not prophesy to us right things? Speak to us smooth [politically correct] things, prophesy deceits.? Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.??

    Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel:

    ?Because you despise this word, and trust in oppression and perversity, and rely on them, therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant.? And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter?s vessel, which is broken in pieces; He shall not spare.? So there shall not be found among its fragments a shard to take fire from the hearth, or to take water from the cistern.??

    [Isaiah 30:1-3, 8-14, Bible, NKJV]

    In summary, the govenrment has become a big social insurance company which makes tons of money out of helping people violate God's law. This trend cannot continue and our society is headed for rapid collapse because of what it does to destroy families, churches, morality, and freedom.

    The enemy is not the government, but selfishness, ignorance, laziness, apathy, evasion of personal responsibility for oneself, and presumption. The only thing you prove by continuing to frequent these forums and ask questions that you could answer for yourself is that deep down, you don't want personal responsibilty and therefore don't want to be free. The only way you will be free is to love and help your neighbor without being asked so that government becomes unnecessary and taxes and government can be small. You don't want to govern your own life and need someone else to govern you by not only using the materials on this website, but also frequenting these forums to help others and thereby love your neighbor. In that sense, you will get what you deserve from the thieves who run our government. The more you want, the more the world can hurt you, according to Confucius. When you want it REALLY BAD, then you will get it REALLY BAD!! Bend over.

    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Spirituali…ityUniverse.htm

    Quote:
    ?We of this mighty western Republic have to grapple with the dangers that spring from popular self-government tried on a scale incomparably vaster than ever before in the history of mankind, and from an abounding material prosperity greater also than anything which the world has hitherto seen.

    As regards the first set of dangers, it behooves us to remember that men can never escape being governed.? Either they must govern themselves or they must submit to being governed by others.? If from lawlessness or fickleness, from folly or self-indulgence, they refuse to govern themselves then most assuredly in the end they will have to be governed from the outside.? They can prevent the need of government from without only by showing they possess the power of government from within.? A sovereign cannot make excuses for his failures; a sovereign must accept the responsibility for the exercise of power that inheres in him; and where, as is true in our Republic, the people are sovereign, then the people must show a sober understanding and a sane and steadfast purpose if they are to preserve that orderly liberty upon which as a foundation every republic must rest.?

    [President Theodore Roosevelt; Opening of the Jamestown Exposition; Norfolk, VA, April 26, 1907]

    By these comments, we certainly don't intend to either be or to sound cruel. However, this is the naked truth, and you need to hear it or you will continue in “slave mode”.

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 20, 2008 at 4:00 am in reply to: "Rescind" a birth certificate

    1. The record in the family bible is not equal in evidentiary weight to a birth certificate. The Dept of State will NOT accept the family bible as authority to issue a passport.

    2. It doesn't matter what the birth certificate says. No one will ever argue with you whether it was the republic state or the corporate state. The only thing that matters is how you fill out the passport application. Follow the instructions at:

    SEDM Forms page, Form #09.017

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    If you don't have a birth certificate, for instance because you had a home birth outside a hospital, you and your wife should make an affidavit of live birth and have it signed and notarized and use that in place of a birth certificate. Make several originals and save copies for your kids after you die. File at least one original in the county recorder's office and tell your kids it is filed there so they continue to have legal evidence of their birth place and date. They will need them.

    Passports are propety of the government, not your property. If you are starting with an older passport connected to a government number, then you need to turn it back into the Dept. of State and indicate that it is no longer accurate because issued with a number that was not lawfully issued. See:

    Why You Are Not Eligible For Social Security, Form #06.001

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    Beyond that, I can't answer your questions and I can't give legal advice. I also hope you will reciprocate the help you got from me by continuing to frequent these forums and helping other new members as you learn more. The best way to learn any subject is to take exclusive responsibility for dealing with your own problems and to help and teach others to understand any subject. This is a give and take forum, not just a take forum.

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 19, 2008 at 5:56 pm in reply to: "Rescind" a birth certificate

    freedomseeker

    The first thing you are going to have to give up if you want to be free are presumptions of all kinds.

    http://sedm.org/Forms/MemLaw/Presumption.pdf

    After you give up all your presumptions and insist on evidence to support everything you believe, the next thing is to decide what you can still believe based on reasonable sources of belief:

    http://sedm.org/Forms/MemLaw/ReasonableBelief.pdf

    The only thing you can believe is what the law actually says, with the Bible as the highest law. Your question reveals that you haven't graduated from the presumption mode and are treating law like a religion. We have never seen any evidence that a birth certificate is a commercial contract or that it creates commercial obligations of any kind. If you have any in your possession, please submit it. If you have no evidence, then you ought to quit believing it and quit governing your life through fairy tales. This whole birth certificate thing started with the UCC crowd and its a religion that dishonors and discredits the freedom community:

    http://sedm.org/Forms/PolicyDocs/UCC.pdf

    A birth certificate is only a contract in the sense that it establishes one's nationality at birth and those in possession of it therefore become nationals of the country of their birth. That gives them the right to return to the country at any time or to receive a passport to allow them to return. As “nationals” but not “citizens”, the government cannot take away their citizenship without their consent. Perkins v. Elg. It might be a contract in the sense that only you can invalidate it by abandoning your nationality, but we have never seen evidence that it is a contract in a commerical sense.

    We at this forum and this fellowship only believe what we can prove with evidence to a jury in a court of law. Where's your evidence?

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 13, 2008 at 8:53 pm in reply to: Non-Resident Alien Issue

    They can only withhold on “wages” as legally defined, not on ALL earnings. You don't earn “wages” as legally defined unless and until you sign an IRS form W-4. Therefore, even if they follow the IRS LIES, they still must withhold and report ZERO. If they do anything else, you can sue them for theft and slavery and they, not the IRS are responsible. Sue the payroll clerk individually, not the company. This will keep the dispute where it belongs, with the specific lawbreaker, and minimize risk to employment.

    All the answers are in:

    Federal and State Withholding Options for Private Employers

    http://famguardian.org/Publications/FedSta…teWHOptions.pdf

    We can't give legal advice and everything above describes what we would do in our own case, not what you should do.

    Please do your homework by reading the above book and make your own informed decisions based on reading the law for yourself. You're not allowed to trust anything we say, but ONLY what the law says.

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 12, 2008 at 8:02 pm in reply to: US Dept of State Questionnaire

    Seraph,

    I didn't write that form, but “national” usually refers to the place of one's birth and not their domicile. Therefore, Part I Block 2 and Part III Block 1(b ) should be consistent with each other, and with one's republic (not “State” of birth), which in the example case is Illinois. Therefore Part III Block 1(b ) should read “Illinois Republic (Not “State” of Illinois) and Kingdom of Heaven”. Also, the following form would make a good attachment to such an application:

    USA Passport Application Attachment, Form #06.003:

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 11, 2008 at 9:41 pm in reply to: Employer refuses W-8BEN

    BountyHunter,

    You may want to consider attaching the following form to the W-4, which redefines the word “W-4” to “W-8”, so that it doesn't matter what form you give them: you are STILL a nonresident alien:

    Payroll Withholding Form Attachment, Form 04.017

    http://sedm.org/Forms/Tax/PayrollWithForm-Long.pdf

    You may also want to attach the following form as well to the W-4:

    Affidavit of Citizenship, Domicile, and Tax Status, Form #02.001

    http://sedm.org/Forms/Affidavits/AffCitDomTax.pdf

    We would also suggest SOMEONE ELSE giving it to them, and not you, and make sure they don't work for the company. Get an affidavit of service from that person, so you can prove they were notified of the legal requirements for withholding if a dispute arises in court later. See:

    Certificate/Proof/Affidavit of Service, Form #01.002

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    If that doesn't work and they either terminate you or refuse to hire you, you have evidence to sue them in court from a neutral third party. DO NOT hand deliver ANYTHING to them. Everything should be mailed with a certificate of service or hand delivered by a neutral third party.

    This is all covered in the following:

    Federal and State Tax Withholding Options for Private Employers

    http://famguardian.org/Publications/FedSta…teWHOptions.pdf

  • Author #5

    Member
    January 11, 2008 at 9:39 pm in reply to: Non-Resident Alien Issue

    BountyHunter,

    You may want to consider attaching the following form to the W-4, which redefines the word “W-4” to “W-8”, so that it doesn't matter what form you give them: you are STILL a nonresident alien:

    Payroll Withholding Form Attachment, Form 04.017

    http://sedm.org/Form…thForm-Long.pdf

    You may also want to attach the following form as well to the W-4:

    Affidavit of Citizenship, Domicile, and Tax Status, Form #02.001

    http://sedm.org/Form…ffCitDomTax.pdf

    We would also suggest SOMEONE ELSE giving it to them, and not you, and make sure they don't work for the company. Get an affidavit of service from that person, so you can prove they were notified of the legal requirements for withholding if a dispute arises in court later. See Form #01.002:

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    If that doesn't work and they either terminate you or refuse to hire you, you have evidence to sue them in court from a neutral third party. DO NOT hand deliver ANYTHING to them. Everything should be mailed with a certificate of service or hand delivered by a neutral third party.

    This is all covered in the following:

    Federal and State Withholding Options for Private Employers

    http://famguardian.org/Publications/FedStateWHOptions/FedStateWHOptions.pdf

  • Author #5

    Member
    August 10, 2007 at 12:19 am in reply to: Creating an Entity

    devDelay,

    The bottom line is, you don't want an EIN and the Treasury Regulations say you don't need one if you aren't engaged in a “trade or business”. Numbers can only lawfully be issued to resident aliens and you aren't one of these and shouldn't be making an election to become one if you are a nonresident alien not engaged in a “trade or business”. Whenever you ask for anything from the IRS, including an EIN, you are making an election to forfeit your sovereign status and become a resident alien of the federal zone. BAD IDEA. The only reason you need one is if you want one. Otherwise, give the bank or financial institution or private employer the:

    Affidavit of Citizenship, Domicile, and Tax Status, Form #02.001

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    If they won't take this, give them a modified IRS form W-8BEN. Follow the procedures below and they will have no choice but to give you an account without a number and not withhold.

    About IRS Form W-8BEN, Form #04.001

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    It is a VERY, VERY bad idea to ask for anything from the government, and especially a number. You are signing the application under penalty of perjury and you would be lying if you said you “had” an SSN or any other identifying number if you comply with the requirements for SEDM membership, quit social security, and corrected all false information returns. See:

    About SSN's and TINs on Government Forms and Correspondence, Form 05.012

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    The above also applies to EINs.

    Trusts and LLC's are the easiest to make, and if they don't own assets, then it doesn't matter whether they have a number or not because there is nothing to levy. If a levy does arrive, all one needs to do is terminate the entity and create a new one. If the entity doesn't have a number, it can't be levied. The best protection is an entity without a number. If one does apply for an number, the best way to do it is to attach to sign the application as an “agent” and attach a note saying that this is ONLY for banking, and:

    1. Is a Nontaxpayer Identification Number.

    2. Does not constitute consent to become a resident or accept any privilege.

    3. Does not constitute evidence that you are engaged in a “trade or busines”, and if they receive any reports, then they are automatically false.

    The following form does most of this and can be used as such an attachment:

    Tax Form Attachment, Form #04.013

    http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

    You're on your own for the rest and please don't contact me for further advice oir help, because I can't give it. This is what I see most people doing and what I would do if I were in that situation.

  • Author #5

    Member
    July 10, 2007 at 4:06 pm in reply to: Is it possible to get out of the Military?

    Amen! Couldn't have said it better.

    Mnicholas doesn't like hearing the truth and can't defend it with reason, logic, and facts, so he solicits turning the forum into an opinion poll to persecute those who disagree with him. These are the very same tactics by the government that we are trying to fight on this website, and all he can do is immitate a common enemy. These same “mob rule” tactics are what landed Jesus on the cross.

    Truly a disgrace. The attitude of his friend is likely to earn him the least desirable position within his unit, so he can properly become cannon fodder for terrorists. This is the most appropriate reward for irresponsible malcontents like him.

  • Author #5

    Member
    July 9, 2007 at 10:20 pm in reply to: There is no Constitution

    Whether or not there is a constitution, there is no government anyway. What we have now is a CORPORATION, not a government.

    Corporatization of the government, Form 05.024

    http://sedm.org/Forms/MemLaw/CorpGovt.pdf

  • Author #5

    Member
    June 29, 2007 at 11:23 pm in reply to: Is it possible to get out of the Military?

    mnichnolas

    The two need NOT be completely different. God's will is that they are the SAME. We make them the same by applying biblical morality to our secular involvement in the government as resonsible citizens, jurists, voters, and “taxpayers”. The extent that they are different is the extent to which God's laws are being violated.

    The fact that they are different explains most of the corruption we find in society today. The origin of that corruption is the deification of government as a pagan idol, which is the essence of socialism:

    http://sedm.org/Forms/MemLaw/SocialismCivilReligion.pdf

    The very goal of this website appears to be to align both of these together so they are consistent with God's law or natural law concepts, which are synonymous. See section 4.1 and introduction to chapter 1 of Great IRS Hoax for the explanation of why:

    http://famguardian.org/Publications/GreatI…reatIRSHoax.htm

  • Author #5

    Member
    June 29, 2007 at 11:09 pm in reply to: Is it possible to get out of the Military?

    mnichnolas,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Like you, we believe in a God of love and light as well. Your definition of “love” would appear to be entirely inconsistent with the Bible's definition. The definition of “love” in the Bible is “obedience” to God's laws and the grace that flows from our best, most informed efforts to do that. Below are some authorities on this subject:

    Quote:
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ?Lord, Lord,? shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven.”

    [Jesus in Matt. 7:21, Bible, NKJV]

    “He who has [understands and learns] My commandments [laws in the Bible (OFFSITE LINK)] and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

    [John 14:21, Bible, NKJV]

    “And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love [obedience to God's Laws] abides in [and is a FIDUCIARY of] God, and God in him.”

    [1 John 4:16, Bible, NKJV]

    “Now by this we know that we know Him [God], if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him [His fiduciaries].? He who says he abides in Him [as a fiduciary] ought himself also to walk [in OBEDIENCE] just as He [Jesus] walked.”?

    [1 John 2:3-6, Bible, NKJV]

    As you can see, the biblical essence of “love” is obedience to God's laws and his messenger within us, the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus. The antithesis of love is disobedience to those laws and the desire to achieve our will instead of God's. Am I missing something here?

    Perhaps you have been too conditioned by the corporate churches with sappy sweet “no liability” sermons to realize that we still have a duty to do our best to “love” God by becoming His ambassodors, agents, and fiduciaries in faithfully EXECUTING His will and His laws on earth. Jesus didn't REPEAL the old testmant and that old testament is still the foundation of the law system of every major civilization in the western world.

    The biblical significance of “love” is as an ACTION, not a feeling. God is not a liablity insurance salesman, as most 501c3 corporate churches would have you believe. It would appear that you follow the party line of these socialist churches See:

    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Spirituali…ityUniverse.htm

    Don't bother trying to accuse us of being legalistic Phariseeical either. We aren't. What Jesus taught is that what is in your heart is most important. Those who willfully violate God's laws and thereby violate the second great commandment to love their neighbor, have a “heart condition” and need repentence.

    You're trying to use God's grace as an excuse to WILLFULLY sin, and the Apostle Paul warned us NOT to do that:

    Quote:
    What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one?s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. [Romans 6:15-19]

    I have also seen no evidence that there is any motive whatsoever to send our soldiers over there to kill innocent women and children. They are there to PROTECT them. The Iraqis kill more of their own through terrorism than we do by preventing terrorism. You're trying to rationalize violating God's laws for the sake of personal benefit and it will go nowhere.

  • Author #5

    Member
    June 29, 2007 at 9:32 pm in reply to: Is it possible to get out of the Military?

    The forgiveness you speak of has to come from the government. They are they one who have to forgive the contract. I can't do it for them. Repentance for the sin of violating an agreement consists in making the agreement good. Leave me out of this.

    The Bible says on this subject:

    Quote:
    “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” [James 4:17]

    Deliberate disregard for what God's law says on any subject or the willful avoidance of assessing its requirements BEFORE we take an action is also a sin.

    Yes, there is room for forgiveness AFTER someone has done something without a knowledge that it was wrong, but willful conspiracy to violate God's laws by people who know better is unforgiveable.

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