
rattler14
Forum Replies Created
- Author #2 wrote on May 13 2005, 04:52 PM:If you visit their forum, please be kind, because your level of understanding will be light years ahead of those visiting Pete's website. He is trying to inform and help the massess, and we think what he is doing is noble and worthy of your praise and helpful assistance. Pete is a very intelligent, sincere, and principled Christian who is simply trying to obey God's law by avoiding government idolatry and the worship of “the BEAST”.
Perhaps you should ask Pete if he'd post a little message in his forum to send people along this way if they want some more in depth research material. I know everyone in the movement carves out their own niche and has their own following, but I think it's in his best interest to provide the most accurate information to his friends, family, and associates. If there is something that might trip them up, they should know about it. The whole issue of signing a 1040, might as JWR points out, be a trap.
Here me out here.
Step 1, make the “mistake” of giving people their refund requests.
Step 2, these people tell all their friends and they start doing the same thing.
Step 3, a large amount of people have no claimed that have 0 liability while being “U.S. citizens”
Step 4, Now “correct your mistake” and reprosecute ALL those human beings, which they in turn become VERY angry and disillusioned with Pete. What could have been a successful movement to make inroads against the IRS has now fallen flat on it's face due to a simple matter of 1040 vs 1040NR after a citizenship clarification.
Just my thoughts? obviously I don't know if this is actually occuring, but one can not just blindly trust the government on an issue so harshly fought.
take care everyone
- JWR wrote on May 14 2005, 03:13 PM:Admin,
I've been to his site before (it's been a while back, but not too far back) and personally am kind of skeptical about those refund checks. I'm not going to dispute whether or not they are real, it doesn't matter to me. But I have wondered if they, the IRS, will give a refund and then a couple of years later “find” their “mistake” and come after you.
This is similar to what happened to me when I first got involved in this. I got a refund and then they came after me a few years later. I didn't do the 0 return at first. In fact, the present “levy” I'm going through right now is from that same 0 return from '00. I never got a refund on that either. The refund I did get was for '97 when someone else did my tax return for me. They eventually wound up doing an illegal levy for that one, too.
In my experience they will wait for two or more years before deciding to stick it to you.
I'm not going to knock him as I don't know what it's all about as I've never read his book. I would like to hear from someone that does have time tested experience with this though. Preferably more than a year or two.
JWR
[post=”1440″][/post]While I agree with JWR that we should always remain cautious and skeptical with these different methods of escaping the IRS misenforcement of USC 26, waiting for a method to become “tried and true” is waste of time. This is simply because the more people that join that particular following, the harder the IRS is going to try and cheat, steal, lie, prosecute, defame, etc that person leading the movement. For example, ee are already seeing this happen with the famguardian.org site now under a [embarassingly weak] injuction from the DOJ.
Does that mean that FG is “breaking the law?” (I can't even say that with a straight face, as it's obvious to me that FG is the only one of the just side of the law in this matter.) What we are seeing here is everyone being targetted for the Nth time: Larken Rose, Jim Mattall, and Family Guardian just to name a few.
I have made my own decision on this matter. I have sat down and asked myself what path I would take. I am in the same boat as you, JWR, but I'm fortunately not going through the pain of levies and all that other fun stuff as of yet.
I'm not trying to get all up in your face. Rather, I am merely trying to support you and others in their decision to do what you know is right. So what if the IRS decides to come back and fix their “mistake”. One must realize that people who willingly pay their income taxes are also brought up on these same charges as well. No one is safe and that's just wrong.
I agree with Author #2 on this issue. I think the use of the 1040 is a bit chancy… though I also think a 1040NR is more likely to get ignored, which is unfortunate if your employer (PRIVATE employer and not the “employer” as defined in the IRC) deducted money from one's salary. I think is the same thing that Fiddo and I are fighting through right now.
take care everyone
This is ridiculous. I watched the video posted and Jim seems like an intelligent, patriotic, and very respectable man. How can someone just “disappear”. It's absurd!
I hope he gets out fine and sues the living pants off of whoever did this to him.
Grrrrrrr
UPDATE
Our senators took the time to carefully weigh the privacy and constitutional implications of this “Real ID 2005” bill that was attached to the IRAQ war spending….
and that is why the act passed 100-0. That's right, no one had the courage to take a stand despite many denouncing the national ID provisions.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/war.funds/index.html
You heard it hear first folks. 2008… the deadline for driver's license requirements… That is, of course, unless some miracle occurs and the president veto's it.
- Sonik Speed wrote on May 10 2005, 11:51 AM:Fiddo..
Interesting philosophy. However, logically speaking, one cannot do something and not do something simultaneously. As far as when to attack and when not to attack verbally or in writing – then may I suggest Sun Tzu's “Art of War”. Sun Tzu is perhaps one of the best philosophers on the art of wars.
Sonik Speed
[post=”1422″][/post]My question to Sonik is how the heck do you manage to sift through so many court cases so quickly? You must be able to read many thousands of words a minute, or are just a search engine genius 🙂
I have to improve my skills, I've recently subscribed to http://www.usscplus.com/ and it's pretty good. I just haven't had enough time to really give it a go.
Definitely an inspiring letter, and I even learned a few things I didn't know.
thanks
The H.R.418 Bill
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:
Is apparently going up for vote in the senate tomorrow…
Attempt futility at contacting your congressman/woman through
Interesting tidbit, while looking over the requirements section, I came across this
(2) SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS-
(A) IN GENERAL- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall comply with the minimum standards of this paragraph.
(:cool: EVIDENCE OF LAWFUL STATUS- A State shall require, before issuing a driver's license or identification card to a person, valid documentary evidence that the person–
(i) is a citizen of the United States;
(ii) is an alien lawfully admitted for permanent or temporary residence in the United States;
(iii) has conditional permanent resident status in the United States;
(iv) has an approved application for asylum in the United States or has entered into the United States in refugee status;
(v) has a valid, unexpired nonimmigrant visa or nonimmigrant visa status for entry into the United States;
(vi) has a pending application for asylum in the United States;
(vii) has a pending or approved application for temporary protected status in the United States;
(viii) has approved deferred action status; or
(ix) has a pending application for adjustment of status to that of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States or conditional permanent resident status in the United States.
Interestingly enough, State is capitalized, so it's unclear to me how a federal territory would issue driver's licenses of the states of the union. But I digress… It doesn't appear that non-resident aliens with respect to the [federal] United States can even get one of these driver's licenses even if they believed they needed one or just wanted one [crazier things have happened in life].
I don't want one anyway, so I'll gladly be “not eligible” for such nonsense.
I hope I danced around the words of art properly, but I've made a few mistakes on this message board before. I can't see any problems, but please refute if I've made any such errors (now and in the future).
-rattler14
- Fiddo wrote on May 9 2005, 09:40 AM:Yes… I felt much the same when I tried to push my withdrawl of my W-4 thru, where I would get odd statements of this or that section and when I would rebutt them… nothing.. no reponse. When I talked with someone, “for them it was final closure of this issue” they said much the same that I was possibly right but since it's too much of a controvercy for just one person it's not worth it for the company or perhaps more for the one person who would have to stamp their approval on it. Plus they claimed that I was taking things out of context and they were not going to help me “avoid not paying my taxes”, not really sure which “taxes” they are referring to.
….
laters
[post=”1416″][/post]Yeah, I remember you telling us that Fiddo. It's funny, even companies feel that the life or rights of one person is not important. Democracy seems to have taken root in every facet of our life. If it's not “for the greater good” or “the bottom line”, you might as well take a back seat.
but unlike before, when I was just observing these forums, I am fighting along side of you Fiddo. just in a different place
- lchesson wrote on May 9 2005, 07:08 AM:My on-going battles are getting me nowhere but deeper into the collection process.
So I will file 1040's with zeroed amounts, and forms 4852's which correct the erroneous 1099's that were filed for the years in question. From what I now understand, as long as they have unrefuted 'prima facie' evidence of 'wages' or 'income', the collection process continues towards levy, which many of you are dealing with now. The 4852 is the proper form to submit for making the assertion that the 1099 or W-2 amounts are NOT in fact 'wages' per section 3401:
Quote:Sec. 3401. – Definitions(a) Wages
For purposes of this chapter, the term ''wages'' means all remuneration (other than fees paid to a public official) for services performed by an employee for his employer,?
c) Employee
For purposes of this chapter, the term ''employee'' includes an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term ''employee'' also includes an officer of a corporation.
I'll keep you posted. Comments welcome.
[post=”1413″][/post]Not legal advice here… but if I were to be doing what you are in the process of doing, I would think twice about my decision between 1040-EZ and 1040NR-EZ. The former comes with a powerful presumption that you are a “U.S. citizen”. I don't know what you status is, but you may want to check out the following document if you have questions or are unsure
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt…hyANational.pdf
I also found another article/webpage that goes over similar ideas. It's called the “25 rules of disinformation”. This is a great rebuttal to those that attack proponents of the tax honesty movement with gibberish like “well if there was no law making all of us liable, don't you think we would've heard about this on CNN by now”.
http://www.matriots.com/bh/25.html
1 Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it — especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.
2 Become incredulous and indignant.
Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used to show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.
3 Create rumor mongers.
Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such “arguable rumors”. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a “wild rumor” which can have no basis in fact.
4 Use a straw man.
Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5 Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.
This is also known as the primary “attack the messenger” ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6 Hit and Run.
In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to -the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.
7 Question motives.
Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8 Invoke authority.
Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9 Play Dumb.
No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues by denial that they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
10 Associate opponent charges with old news.
A derivative of — the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high — visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues — so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
11 Establish and rely upon fall-back positions.
Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the “high road” and “confess” with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made — but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, “just isn't so.” Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for “coming clean” and “owning up” to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.
12 Enigmas have no solution.
Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13 Alice in Wonderland Logic.
Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.
14 Demand complete solutions.
Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10.
15 Fit the facts to alternate conclusions.
This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16 Vanishing evidence and witnesses.
If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.
17 Change the subject.
Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can “argue” with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
18 Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents.
If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how “sensitive they are to criticism”.
19 Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs.
This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
20 False evidence.
Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.
21 Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body.
Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can ensure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed.
22 Manufacture a new truth.
Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.
23 Create bigger distractions.
If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.
24 Silence critics.
If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or other threats.
25 Vanish.
If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen. If you don't, somebody in your organization may choose to vanish you instead.
- Author #2 wrote on Apr 24 2005, 09:18 PM:Ratter14,
I know you mean well, but you're misleading people with your careless and uninformed comments.? The only people who earn “wages” are those who volunteer to participate in withholding by filing a W-4 under 26 CFR 31.3401(a)-3(a).? Please don't use the word “wages”!? Use “earnings” or you are just confusing everyone.? You need to read Chapter 5 of the Great IRS Hoax.? This point is made very clear in section 5.6.7.? If you keep this up, I'm going to have to delete your comments because I don't want anyone mislead.
Author #2
[post=”1376″][/post]Author #2,
please delete previous comment (and this thread).
I do understand the difference, I currently just have trouble seperating my everyday speak with friends from technical legal speak in this forum. I know I should just always use legal speak to save myself from potentially getting into a corner.
-rattler14
- ROKEHAI wrote on Apr 22 2005, 02:31 PM:If the IRS is not an agency or a dept of the US govenment, how can a private company (IRS,Inc.) use Dept of the Treasury in their letterhead & use government forms in their correspondence??? 😮[post=”1372″]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
This is answered by Paul Mitchell here
http://www.supremelaw.org/sls/31answers.htm
In short, they can't use Dept of Treasury letterhead because that is fraud for acting under the guise of the federal government.
I imagine a similar analysis is done by Family Guardian Fellowship, though this is the document that came to my mind first when reading your question.
- Bing wrote on Apr 22 2005, 10:47 AM:If one obtains a USA Passport indicating that one was born inside one of the several states of the American Union, can the passport be used in a court proceeding, as conclusive evidence that one is an American Citizen?
On the surafce, one might suspect that the answer to this hypothetical question is “YES”.
However, earlier today, while doing some legal research, I was able to track down a US supreme Court opinion decided in January 1835, in the Matter of Urtetiqi v. D'Arbel (9 Peters 692), wherein, the Court held that a passport signed by the Secretary of State of the United States and bearing the seal of the Department WAS NOT evidence to prove citizenship in a suit involving the question of citizenship of the United States (here, the Court means American Citizenship), although by usage and the law of nations it is received as evidence of that fact.
The Court ruled:
“It [a passport] is a document which, from its nature and object, is addressed to foreign powers;purporting to only be a request that the bearer of it may pass safely and freely, and it is to be consideredrather in the character of a political document, by which the bearer is recognized in foreign countries as an American citizen(sic), and which, by usage and the law of nations, is received as evidence of that fact. But this is a very different light from that in which it is to be viewed in a court of justice where the inquiry is as to the fact of citizenship.? It is a mere ex parte certificate; and, if founded upon any evidence produced to the Secretary of State establishing the fact of citizenship, that evidence, if of a character admissable in a court of justice, ought to be produced upon the trial as higher and better evidence of the fact…”
Now, bear in mind that each of the several states are foreign with respect to the federal government and the sister states.? So, based on the reasoning in Urtetiqi v. D'Arbel (9 Peters 692), a Citizen of the California Republic can travel? to the foreign nation known as the Texas Republic, and, if required by a government official to show ID and prove that they are not an illegal Mexican immigrant, one can produce the USA Passport as proof of American Citizenship.? I seriously doubt that this is what the Supreme Court was intending, but the fact remains that their ruling can be lawfully applied in such scenario.
By contrast, if you find yourself in federal court in California, it appears that using a USA Passport to prove American Citizenship, may not be the best evidence that one can offer to said court.
I am interested to see if anyone? has any comments on this.
Bing
[post=”1368″][/post]Bing,
Dunno off the top of my head, but whether or not that line of reasoning hinges on a few things.
1) This was decided in 1835, well before other cases involving the introduction of [federal] U.S. Citizenship after the civil war. Have the requirements for a passport thus changed? If they have (and please note, I DO NOT know if they did, I haven't looked it up yet.) and they become more stringent, one could argue that it's not just a political document but legitimate evidence.
2) Has this case been cited/upheld/overturned?
3) If a passport can't be used as solid evidence, what would be better? A driver's liscence (I doubt it)? I'm not talking about authenticity, but rather what would be reasonable? The only thing I can think of would be
Quote:8 USC ? 1452.(:cool: Application to Secretary of State for certificate of non-citizen national status; proof; oath of allegianceA person who claims to be a national, but not a citizen, of the United States may apply to the Secretary of State for a certificate of non-citizen national status. Upon?
(1) proof to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that the applicant is a national, but not a citizen, of the United States, and
(2) in the case of such a person born outside of the United States or its outlying possessions, taking and subscribing, before an immigration officer within the United States or its outlying possessions, to the oath of allegiance required by this chapter of a petitioner for naturalization, the individual shall be furnished by the Secretary of State with a certificate of non-citizen national status, but only if the individual is at the time within the United States or its outlying possessions.
thoughts?
a heads up to others…
http://famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/Forms/In…NRFedLetter.htm
If you have a previous version of the word attachment… there are a few hiccups and you may have “U.S. National” instead of “national” in various places.
Hopefully you all had the latest copy (which appears to be correct in all places on this issue). As for myself, hopefully I'll face no dire consequences 🙁
Lesson learned… always be thorough
cheers
One more quick note… I just want to clarify that there is no blame being cast in my last post. I too was merely a little careless and I should, after all my research and reading so far, be much more of a stickler in all of my terms.
Again, I will never try to spread disinformation. If I do slip up, PLEASE call my attention to it immediately. The last thing I want is for someone to get themselves into trouble over my mistake.
Coming full circle and getting back to the point, I think “right to travel” supreme court cases should be looked at with a little skepticism if they are in regards to “citizens of the United States”.
cheers
- Author #2 wrote on Apr 21 2005, 07:10 AM:Sonik/Ratter14
You guys are confused about citizenship and that confusion is infecting other members of this forum.? Please quit spreading misinformation on this forum.? Don't EVER call anyone a “US National”.? You can call them a “USA national” or a “national” or a “state national”, but NOT a “U.S. national”.? That name is reserved within federal law for people born in American Samoa or Swain's Island and they are different than people born in states under federal law.? Putting the word “US” in one's citizenship status just creates a false presumption that people are associated with the “United States” under federal law, and we need to avoid such presumptions.? I've fixed this and further clarified it in the citizenship paper as well at:
Sorry if my unclear explanations in the past may have mislead anyone.? It was not intentional, but simply carelessness.
Author #2
[post=”1358″][/post]Author #2,
My sincerest apologies. I was mixing up “national of the United States” (8 USC 1101(a)22(:cool: with “U.S. National”. To be fair, I mistakenly believed the 2 were equivalent based on the old document (called WhyAUSNational.pdf) table 2-1 “types of national” column 4 title “common name”. The word “or”, at least from a programmer's perspective 😉 means equivalence….
I should have realized that prefixing anything with U.S. instead of U.S.A. was stupid in every sense and I should be using “state national” or “national” instead, regardless…
Just like it wasn't your intention to mislead anyone, it wasn't mine intention either. I will start proof reading a little harder on my posts…
take care