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Forum Replies Created
IN RE: 4
Are there places within the geographical boundaries of the 50 states over which the United States exercises sovereignty?
IN RE: 4
So who is the sovereign over D.C., territories, and possessions of the United States?
IN RE: 4
So is Congress the ultimate sovereignty in Puerto Rico?
And what did the Constitution mean when it said:
“…all needful rules and regulations…” in IV:3:2? Is this congressional authority less comprehensive than exclusive?
IN RE: 4
OK . . . now we are getting somewhere.
What is the difference between exclusive legislative sovereignty and proprietary sovereignty?
And if the United States does not exercise exclusive legislative sovereignty in Puerto Rico, then who or what does? Is it a King? Does Puerto Rico have the same class of sovereignty as one of the 50 states?
IN RE: 4
You are correct . . . it is the “Territorial Clause.” VI:2 is the “Supremacy Clause.” The post has been corrected.
OK . . . fair enough.
Does the United States exercise EXCLUSIVE legislative sovereignty in Puerto Rico?
IN RE: 4
But what about the Territorial Clause? Does the United States not exercise EXCLUSIVE legislative sovereignty within the territories and possessions embraced by the Territorial Clause? See below:
“The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States;”
U.S. Const., art. IV, sec. 3, cl. 2
Then you say:
But sovereignty we’re discussing is legislative one…thus Article I.
To which I respond: “No sir. That is NOT what we are discussing. See my quote below from my previous post.
Yes, but I:8 is subject matter related, and that subject matter extends everywhere . . . even within foreign nations. But I want to focus on geography. OK?
Where does the United States exercise EXCLUSIVE legislative sovereignty? Again, the question is WHERE?
We will NEVER resolve anything if we do not answer each other’s questions AS POSED.
If I was not clear before, the question is: WHERE does the United States exercise EXCLUSIVE legislative sovereignty?
Yes, but I:8 is subject matter related, and that subject matter extends everywhere . . . even within foreign nations. But I want to focus on geography. OK?
Where does the United States exercise EXCLUSIVE legislative sovereignty? Again, the question is WHERE?
IN RE: 4
But don’t forget it also comprises the People of the “States” — both constitutional (the 50) and statutory (D.C., territories, and possessions), and the Federal government and state governments. A nation is a political union of all three of these things — land, people, and government. If you agree on this, then we are in agreement too with the SCOTUS on that topic per Texas v. White.
Now onto “the territory over which the sovereignty of the United States extends.”
Notice it does not say “objects” or “subject matter” over which the sovereignty of the United States extends. It says “territory.”
Question: Is territory in this context synonymous with geography? Or can it also embrace banking, copyright law, the post office, etc.?
IN RE: 4
Ok man . . . I’m back with you. I’ve been out and about for a while.
This would go much more quickly though if we could really just answer the questions. There is no need to rehash “philosophies” or personal opinions. Let’s just stay on topic . . . which at this time is nailing down two issues:
1. What comprises “United States” the nation?; and
2. What constitutes “territory over which the sovereignty of the United States (government) extends”?
Just answer these questions simply. I would propose the following styled answers:
1. A body politic comprising land, people, and government.
2. D.C., territories, and possessions.
See? Short and to the point. We can get into I:8:1-17 and IV:3:2 here later. This thread will never end and NOTHING will ever be resolved if we can’t simply answer questions, establish acceptable facts, and build a case. I simply don’t have time to do anything else.
IN RE: 4
Whether or not the Constitution applies to the territories is not the substance of my question.
Do you assert that the Federal government exerts sovereignty over the geography of the 50 states? If so, what geography does the Legislature of Florida exercise sovereignty over?
IN RE: 4
No sir . . . we are within a sub-set of inquiries at this time. In re: 4, as each heading of my posts indicate.
The issue being discussed currently are the 4 meanings of the term “United States” as delineated in Hooven & Allison Co. v. Evatt. And more specifically, we are trying to distinguish between meaning (1) a sovereign analogous to that of other sovereigns within the family of nations, and (2) the territory over which the sovereignty of the United States extends.
Now, are D.C., the territories, and possessions part of the sovereign nation of the United States?
The question addressed in the insular cases is a different topic which will be addressed in due time. I want to know if the territories and possessions are part of the nation of the United States. If they are not, would you please tell me what nation they are a part of?
IN RE: 4
You said:
The 50 states, their people, and the United States government form the nation. The territories are possessions of the United States and WERE NOT a party to the U.S. Constitution.
Do not go beyond this quote. We must resolve this immediately.
There are two separate issues here: (1) The nation, and (2) who is party to the Constitution.
Do you contend that D.C., the territories, and the possessions are NOT part of the nation? Yes or No?
IN RE: 4
1. The 50 sovereigns (states) united–as in a nation of the United States. ***DC included as it was part of the states when united.
This is absolutely incorrect. The 50 states do NOT form the nation. The 50 states are merely component or political subdivisions of the nation. The nation also comprises DC, the territories, and the Federal government. Additionally, DC is also not included within the meaning of “the 50 states.”
‘But,’ said the Chief Justice, ‘as the act of Congress obviously used the word ‘state’ in reference to that term as used in the Constitution, it becomes necessary to inquire whether Columbia is a state in the sense of that instrument. The result of that examination is a conviction that the members of the American confederacy only are the states contemplated in the Constitution , . . . and excludes from the term the signification attached to it by writers on the law of nations.’ This case was followed in Barney v. Baltimore, 6 Wall. 280, 18 L. ed. 825, and quite recently in Hooe v. Jamieson, 166 U.S. 395 , 41 L. ed. 1049, 17 Sup. Ct. Rep. 596. The same rule was applied to citizens of territories in New Orleans v. Winter, 1 Wheat. 91, 4 L. ed. 44, in which an attempt was made to distinguish a territory from the District of Columbia. But it was said that ‘neither of them is a state in the sense in which that term is used in the Constitution.’ [emphasis added]
Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244 (1901)
Then you said:
The 4th meaning really is not another meaning in my opinion, but the natural consequence of 50 states being united into one nation and creating a government with certain enumerated and delegated powers over the nation. And such nation cannot contain any other territory (geography) other than the territory of the 50 sovereigns who united to create it.
Your opinion does not have authority here. D.C., Guam, Puerto Rico, USVI, CNMI, and American Samoa are also part of our nation, and they are not within the meaning of the 50 states.
What territory (geography) does the Federal government exercise sovereignty over?
IN RE: 4
Please just answer the questions. If you need me to elaborate, please tell me.
Agreed, the sovereignty of the Federal government insofar as D.C., the territories and possessions goes, is comprehensive.
There are 3 different meanings of the “United States” in the Constitution, and 4 within the Hooven & Allison Co. v. Evatt citation. The constitutional meanings are:
(1) the several states United (50 only–no territories, DC, or gov),
(2) the nation (14th Amndt), and
(3) the government itself (14th Amndt).
Hooven talks about the “territory over which the sovereignty of the United States (Federal government) extends.” This description is not referred to within the constitution as the United States. The Constitution deals only in political entities, not geographical entities (I:8:17 & IV:3:2 not withstanding).
Do you agree that territory (or geography) is but one component of a nation, which itself is people, government, and geography?
Is a component of a whole the same as the whole? Is a steering wheel the same as an automobile?IN RE: 4
No side bar discussions here. We are going to stay on task wrt #4 until we get the facts established. Then we can discuss within the context of the facts (admissions).
Does Congress exercise territorial sovereignty over D.C., the territories, and the possessions?
Does Congress exercise territorial sovereignty over the 50 states?
