
BOBT12
Forum Replies Created
“How many of the people who read that article online are like you or me–not having signed a W-4 or other Article I franchise forms?”-stija. Well if people who read that article are on this site they should be members of this form, as part of their membership they should be fully aware of the issues revolving around “voluntary” vs. “mandatory” action. The “mandatory” actions is overruled, just as the OP highlighted. Once people voluntarily sign up, then there are obligations that are attached to that action (just like any contract). The OP is clear in explaining this (and rightfully warning against it), too. Therefore, the OP is correct and there is no need for it to be changed. Indeed, I am certain it will not be changed.
I would have thought the OP quote was clear, STOP SIGNING VOLUNTARY WITHHOLDING AGREEMENTS.
26 CFR § 31.3402(p)-1 Voluntary withholding agreements.
(a) In general.
An employee and his employer may enter into an agreement under section 3402(b) to provide for the withholding of income tax upon payments of amounts described in paragraph (b)(1) of Sec. 31.3401(a)-3, made after December 31, 1970. An agreement may be entered into under this section only with respect to amounts which are includible in the gross income of the employee under section 61, and must be applicable to all such amounts paid by the employer to the employee. The amount to be withheld pursuant to an agreement under section 3402(p) shall be determined under the rules contained in section 3402 and the regulations thereunder. (b) Form and duration of agreement. (1)(i) Except as provided in subdivision (ii) of this subparagraph, and employee who desires to enter into an agreement under section 3402 (p) shall furnish his employer with Form W-4 (withholding exemption certificate) executed in accordance with the provisions of section 3402(f) and the regulations thereunder. The furnishing of such Form W-4 shall constitute a request for withholding.
[…]
(iii) No request for withholding under section 3402(p) shall be effective as an agreement between an employer and an employee until the employer accepts the request by commencing to withhold from the amounts with respect to which the request was made.
Emphasis added.
If people stop agreeing to be taxpayers there will not be any ObamaNoCare penalty.
I know that many people may have signed such documents in ignorance. It is time to learn what voluntary means:
vol·un·tar·y (vln-tr)
adj.
1. Done or undertaken of one’s own free will: a voluntary decision to leave the job.
2. Acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward: a voluntary hostage; voluntary community work.
3. Normally controlled by or subject to individual volition: voluntary muscle contractions.
4. Capable of making choices; having the faculty of will.
5. Supported by contributions or charitable donations rather than by government appropriations: voluntary hospitals.
6. Law
a. Without legal obligation or consideration: a voluntary conveyance of property.
Emphasis added.
And steps to live in Rightful Liberty.
The OP is correct in what it’s saying, ” The “Individual Mandate” Is “Voluntary” and handled just like the “voluntary” income tax.. So, If you do not “voluntarily” sign up and give your “numbers” they are SOL.” If folks can understand this, they can take effective action to retain their rights.
Then stop the presumptions and assumptions!
Yes, Roberts, the OP, and I, Agee that the mandate, as written by Congress, is destroyed. Period.
The OP, and myself, agree that people should not discard their their God given rights due to fraud or misunderstanding. However, they are certainly free to volunteer if that’s their honest intention, to enter into an private law (equal to an agreement to perform under contract with Walmart, McDonalds, or any private operation) agreement to be bound by a tax that might be characterized as a mandate,
“You, on the other hand, contend that if it were upheld as a commerce law it would be a strict mandate on ALL individuals, irregardless of their involvement in commerce.”
No, I don’t. I contend that this was Congress’ intention (hence, the whole reason for the term “individual mandate”). I agree with Roberts and the OP that this whole idea was unconstitutional, and the mandate was struck down.
Tax laws are not laws?
Tax laws are especially limited by the Constitution, to either a Direct tax (limited to use with an apportionment), or an indirect tax (which is just that, INDIRECT, and geography uniform). Naturally, there’s a third kind of tax, which is run as an indirect tax, this is the voluntary tax. Since its voluntary, there’s no legal requirement to pay it. In practice this tax is enforced through fraud and force, all of which invalidates the intent of voluntary action. This is the same situation when someone robs the corner store, except the store owner knows he was robbed. Victims of the Great IRS tax hoax don’t generally understand this, and as a result, fail to take action to protect their rights.
But commerce laws are laws? Gee…I thought all of them are laws if constitutionally promulgated–as this one was under clause 1 of section 8 of article I.
Congress has separate abilities under the constitution, they broadly regulate interstate commerce (perhaps too broadly, often affecting commerce within the states) throughout the fifty states. Of course, Congress wanted regulate individuals behavior under the ACA legislation, and Roberts said this could not be done.
if Roberts, hypothetically speaking for sake of argument, didn’t say that the mandate was not a valid exercise of Congress’ commerce power, then the mandate would be a mandate and a law? In other words, then it could force individuals to buy insurance nothwithstanding any other act or consent on their part?
That’s what the OP suggests and what I can infer from your posts. Is that a correct assessment?
Yes. At least this was clearly the intention of Congress. Roberts rightfully determined there wasn’t any Constitutional support for this position.
Again, you’re incorrect. As you know, or should know, law affects the public generally, as the ACA Congressional “mandate” attempted to do. However when Roberts struck down this provision, as noted in the OP, the mandate was destroyed under law. When Roberts said the mandate may reasonably be characterized as a tax, the character of the mandate became a special law affecting only volunteers. For those who truly want to volunteer, sign all the relevant documents, you’re good to go. Yet, if one doesn’t want such voluntary servitude, then one must take action to demonstrate they don’t want to volunteer. The Great IRS Hoax Book fully explains this. However, it is abundantly clear that you don’t have a working knowledge of the work, so you stumble around making uninformed statements. I would suggest that you become familiar with that body of work. Otherwise, it is becoming pointless to respond to you further.
Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, pp. 1397-1398, 0-314-76271-X
special law. One relating to particular persons or things; one made for individual cases or for particular places or districts; one operating upon a selected class, rather than upon the public generally. A private law. A law is “special” when it is different from others of the same general kind or designed for a particular purpose, or limited in range or confined to a prescribed field of action or operation. A “special law” relates to either particular persons, places, or things or to persons, places, or things which, though not particularized, are separated by any method of selection from the whole class to which the law might, but not such legislation, be applied. Utah Farm Bureau Ins. Co. v. Utah Ins. Guaranty Ass’n, Utah, 564 P.2d 751, 754. A special law applies only to an individual or a number of individuals out of a single class similarly situated and affected, or to a special locality. Board of County Com’rs of Lemhi County v. Swensen, Idaho, 80 Idaho 198, 327 P.2d 361, 362. See also Private bill; Private law. Compare General law; Public law.
[Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, pp. 1397-1398, 0-314-76271-X]
I agree with much of your assessment.
In the final analysis, however, I still must disagree with your view that the Opening Post is misleading. The post is accurate in every way. It is not the OP’s fault that many people are unjustly, through ignorance, fraud, or force, encouraged to sign “voluntary” documents, such as the IRS Form W-4, etc. The mandate only exist for those who “volunteer” to it. Thus, it’s not a mandate, but rather, voluntary action. If people don’t understand they are volunteering to be servants to a merciless system, then it is high time that they wake up to this reality. This is clearly the point the OP is attempting to rightfully drill home! People must first become aware of the fact of the situation that confronts them. With the knowledge, for instance, that the mandate actually has a voluntary basis, they can take action that is more in line with their true intentions.
Moreover, this site is largely built around informing the members of “The Great IRS Hoax: Why We Don’t Owe Income Tax Book”, thus, the OP is in line with this mission. If people do NOT want to hear the truth of ObamaNoCare or the IRS Hoax, they are certainly free to go elsewhere to hear things that are “smooth” to them.
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”- Thomas Jefferson
“Please do give me an example of a ‘proper’ commerce clause mandate then.”-stija. Why should I need to do this? I have never taken such a position that there IS a PROPER commerce clause MANDATE! In fact, I agree that such a mandate is improper. Did you miss that or something?
“Are mandates only allowed under the commerce clause?”-stija. NO. Why should they be allowed, I agree with Roberts on this subject. They are NOT allowed.
“Are you implying that an IRC employee is not mandated under this law to carry health insurance?”-stija. That’s what I am saying. However, you can feel free to show where the mandate exist within the IRC. Nonetheless, Roberts made it clear that the mandate has taken on the character of a tax. Thus, the mandate has failed as Congress envisioned it, and it’s character had been replaced as a tax falling under the IRC.
For the condition precedent of liability to be met, there must be a lawful assessment, either a voluntary one by the taxpayer or one procedurally proper by the IRS. Because this country’s income tax system is based on voluntary self-assessment, rather than distraint, Flora v. United States, 362 U.S. 145, 176, 80 S.Ct. 630, 646-47, 4 L.Ed.2d 623 (1960), the Service may assess the tax only in certain circumstances and in conformity with proper procedures.”
Bothke v. Terry, 713 F. 2d 1405, at 1414 (1983).Emphasis added.
“1. The mandate was held to not be a commerce power but a tax power.”-stija. No it was not.
“Even if the mandate may reasonably be characterized as a tax”-Roberts (emphasis added). The mandate now takes of the character of a tax, and thus, works under the rules of a tax, not a mandate.
char·ac·ter·ize
transitive verb ˈker-ik-tə-ˌrīz, ˈka-rik-: to describe the character or special qualities of (someone or something)
: to be a typical feature or quality of (someone or something)
“( 😎 Such an analysis suggests that the shared responsibility
payment may for constitutional purposes be considered a tax“.(emphasis added)-RobertsThe mandate is unconstitutional my hard of hearing, friend. Instead Roberts is characterizing it as a tax. However, once the mandate has fallen, we have a tax, that must behave as a TAX.
(a) The Affordable Care Act describes the “
hared responsibility
payment” as a “penalty,” not a “tax.” That label is fatal to the application
of the Anti-Injunction Act. It does not, however, control
whether an exaction is within Congress’s power to tax.[…]
(c) Even if the mandate may reasonably be characterized as a
tax, it must still comply with the Direct Tax Clause, which provides:
“No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion
to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.”The TAX takes on the character of an “indirect tax
Still, there is NO ACTUAL MANDATE.
Sure, he would have concluded that the INDIVIDUAL MANDATE IS A VALID EXERCISE of congress’s power under the commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause!
And according to you then the individual mandate would not be voluntary but would actually be mandated right?According to Roberts,”the INDIVIDUAL MANDATE IS NOT A VALID EXERCISE of congress’s power”. And this is what is important regarding this matter.
Roberts destroyed the individual mandate when he failed to uphold it.
How would he have upheld it?Please do explain.
Sure, he would have concluded that the INDIVIDUAL MANDATE IS A VALID EXERCISE of congress’s power under the commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause!
Again, are you suggesting that Congress possesses a power that can mandate one’s involuntary participation in one of the Article I subjects delegated to it so that one can be regulated?
Of course NOT! However, that is what a mandate does attempt to do. Yet Roberts said that the MANDATE IS NOT A VALID EXERCISE OF CONGRESS’S POWER. END OF STORY, END OF THE MANDATE.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS delivered the opinion of the Court with respect to Part IIIC*, concluding that the individual mandate may be upheld as within Congresss power under the Taxing Clause. Pp. 3344.
Roberts destroyed the individual mandate when he failed to uphold it. Period. A mandate is a mandate and a tax is a tax, as explained above. There is no individual mandate within Congress’ power to tax under the Constitution. Please feel free to point to such an individual mandate in the Constitution, since Roberts didn’t do so, he points to the taxing power that Congress already has. Nevertheless, he didn’t add the mandate to what previously existed, Roberts didn’t even attempt to put one there with this decision. If Roberts intended to change prior decisions he should have said so, by the citation, yet, he didn’t. Moreover, the Constitution doesn’t support it as Roberts makes clear. This is what the OP is pointing out.
By the by, this board’s software won’t let you edit your posts after a few minutes.